Episode Transcript

William Christodoulou:

So you've championed entrepreneurship for decades, long before it was trending. Can you take us back to the moment you realised betting on people, not just ideas, was your path forward? 

Arlene Dickinson:

You know, ever since I was young, I've have really found satisfaction in making other people successful. There's something about, you know, helping somebody else to reach their dreams that really has mattered to me deeply. And I've always felt like if I could help in any way to help somebody else be successful, that I would in turn somehow be successful. I never really put my success as the goal. The success of others was the goal. And I just believed that somehow along that journey I would have success. And for me, success at that point, Will, was really just, you know, being able to see other people, you know, win. And so it was it was it's kind of inbred in me. I think it comes from, you know, my upbringing of helping others first and figuring out how to make sure everybody can live their dreams. And I I've always said that people hire consultants or strategists or business advisors for one of two reasons. Or they do business with people for one of two reasons. Not even just advisors. Either they want you to help them build their dream or they want you to help them stop their pain. And if it's build their dream, you know, you're buying into their vision, you're doing everything you can to support them, which is very entrepreneurial. And if it's stopped their pain, it's likely that they've chosen you know, a path that isn't good for them, that isn't working out for them, that they're in in a lot of ch the challenges are there and so you can help them stop their pain. And so if you can do either of those two things, then I think you're winning. 

William Christodoulou:

We felt that from you too. Even though like how how packed your schedule has been, you've given us an email, you've given us your time, and we felt that so much, not only from folks like yourself, but others that have kind of always given back that it's how can I make the path easier for those that I'm trying to help because I had a harder time or or have gotten assistance from others that have helped me. And that's like a thing that we've heard over and over again from very successful folks like yourself that we always appreciate go our appreciation for, but also learn from as well when it comes to things like that. So so thanks thank you so much for again giving back in that sense. And then the other side of this thing is today, local is a sticker slapped on almost everything from soap to software, but the heart of it can kind of get lost sometimes in kind of how we kind of communicate it. What does local really mean to you? And I know that's a big question. How can we reclaim it with something more than just something that's marketed? 

Arlene Dickinson:

Yeah, I mean for me, you know, if it's if it's employing people in Canada, if it's growing the economy by virtue of innovation or IP or, you know, product development, you know, like is if there's something that's actually output that provides jobs and economic development and and value to our nation, then that's very local to me. you know, I I think that it is a challenge because people are saying whatever they, you know, they there sometimes you can have a head office in Canada and still produce and manufacture in another country, which I think is fine. You're paying taxes in Canada. Generally you're still doing something to help our economy. So I think we have to be a little bit more liberal in our interpretation of what local is. But local to me is generally it's an entrepreneur on a business that is building for Canada, trying very hard to create jobs and economic values here. Yeah, because we kind of saw big surgence in like that local brand you saw Canadian Maple Leafs at all the stores. We saw right advertisements on sports going probably made in Canada. And I like actually what you said there, where it's like, yes, there will be some brands that are going to perhaps not be made in initially in Canada, but supporting businesses like families and a and the economy in some perspectives in there.

William Christodoulou:

I'll jump to the next question in a second. Is there anyone that you've seen that has actually done that very well that kind of quickly comes to mind and you kind of think, wow, they've actually like not only just marketed it, but actually embody the concept of like being local, being Canadian that you kind of think that other brands and other groups should kind of look towards? 

Arlene Dickinson:

Well, you know, I I can't help but use one of the companies that I invest in as an example because that's one I know intimately. You know, Balzac's Coffee is a great example of a company that is a hundred percent Canadian owned. hundred percent of the people that employs are Canadian. suppliers and it's in in terms of the the roasting, in terms of the packaging, in terms of the distribution and everything is local. And so as in Canadian made. And I think the difference for it is that its ingredient, its key ingredient is coffee beans. And coffee beans of course can't be grown in Canada. They're grown in another country. They're imported here, but literally everything else is Canadian. And so, you know, they created a product called you know, Canada's Cup during, you know, when this the height of the all goes up campaign, the height of kind of we want to make sure we're buying Canadian to demonstrate that they actually understood, you know, what Canada is and they actually wanted to contribute. And so I would say it's a great example of using a marketing strategy based on a business reality. And the business reality is this was a hundred percent Canadian company, and they were doing everything here in this country and creating l lots of jobs and lots of economic value, even though their main ingredient doesn't come from the nation. 

William Christodoulou:

That's a great point. My wife and I usually go to Balzac's all the time. There's one right around the corner from us. So they're a great brand. I also went to the one at St. Lawrence Market pretty recently too. I like to just again an emphasis there. It's like recognising there's only certain things that can be controlled that can be Canadian. Like the coffee bean is a fantastic example, right? Like I'm as much as I wish we had a coffee agriculture bit and I could go visit there all the time. They control everything else around it. As you said, like the branding, the design, all of that, keeping that circular in the economy and pulling that in is so valuable. I think Balzac's like they buy ethically sourced beans too, right? Like that's a whole other thing that they do, which is kind of cool too. So anyway, that's a that's a great example. 

Arlene Dickinson:

Interestingly enough, when we did that Canada's Cup promotion, we actually ensured that we used a company that was the packaging company was Canadian. So everything down to that detail to make sure that even the you know the printing and the packaging was done here in Canada was really important to us to think about the entire continuum so that we could actually, you know, say that it was Canada's Cup. And that that was important. 

William Christodoulou:

I love that. And this and the thing too that I always think of when you kind of bring some of your value to the companies you work with, you're always trying to say, How do we stick to the values of our brand? How do we bring forward the best of our brand and provide the customer very special experience? And so what I wanna kinda quickly pivot into is when you do that kind of work with your your brands or your groups, you're always there trying to keep them relevant, trying to keep them kind of mind. So for credit unions, they set up a kind of a cross crossroad to be kind of mission led, but often are perceived as outdated. So they have this mission side and but they're always kind of like, I think my grandpa kind of goes there, that kind of thing. If you were advising one today what's the one bold move you challenge them to make to stay both human modern? What type of advice would you give? 

Arlene Dickinson:

I need to verify so maybe fact check this for me, but I'm pretty sure that it was a credit union that invented the ATM. So there is a lot of innovation and a lot of very modernized technology that's happening inside of credit unions. But credit unions can be very quiet about their their skills, their talent, their technology use, et cetera, because they're they're very much community driven. And I think because they're community driven, they can be seen as colloquial or somehow very small minded. But it's exactly the opposite. They're very in touch with the local community, the local entrepreneur, the the, you know, listen, if if your neighbor does well in a community, then your neighborhood does well in your community. If your neighborhood does well, your larger community does well, your province does well, your country does well.

And they're at the very heart of that. So I think that they could, you know, I I think they they probably just need to be a little bit more less Canadian in terms of their, you know, maybe shyness or reluctance to to brag. It doesn't have to be bragging, but it can be claiming what they do. They the billions of dollars in economic value that credit unions no doubt deliver to our country and to our nation is significant and and yet people think about the big banks all the time, but they don't think about, you know, what credit unions do, which is support farms, support entrepreneurs, support local business owners, support small business owners, support, you know, growth strategies. Like there there's so much that a credit union does. And so I think leveraging that community connection, especially today where people are craving connection and they want more local, hyperlocal is becoming a thing.

Again. And so I think they should leverage it and talk more about it and show their connection into what's different in Winnipeg, that's different in Alberta, that's different in BC, that's different in Nova Scotia, et cetera. These are different communities, but we all are connected because we're Canadian. 

William Christodoulou:

That's awesome. And it's super cool too because this is something that we decided. We've been blessed to join this group really quickly and the fact that you're saying this too. It's like thump their chests a bit. You know, it's like they do these really cool things. Like I think they were actually one of the first to like allow women to be able to open checking accounts was a credit union. I think they were the first to issue credit cards. Like they're super at the forefront of awesome things, just like you said with the ATMs. But they don't do this. Right. Like I think I saw one credit union ad through the Jays game and it was like a big campaign. That was and it was like that was it. The rest is like it's set on. So I really like you kind of saying, get up there. Yeah. be less Canadian as much as you love being Canadian.

Arlene Dickinson:

That's interesting to me. I mean, I didn't know that about the women, you know, like the support. And that that's something as I sit here with my La Femme sh you know, shirt on. I mean, this is something they could actually leverage in their marketing. Not to and not at the expense of disenfranchising, you know, their male clients or or you know, their you know, their any any who identifies differently, but to just talk about the fact that they do recognize individual needs. 

William Christodoulou:

Yeah, exactly. And then and then also the other point that you mentioned too that I think is really cool. Just again, w the question is how do you kind of stand out, how do become relevant again? It's emphasizing the value, just like a Balzacs or just like any brand, emphasizing that little differentiator in like a sea of very loud marketing noise out there. That's their nugget. The the fact that they're in, as you said, those communities and things like that. That would be super powerful for them to really just be again feed less Canadian as much as being Canadian is awesome in that one lens of things, which is really, really cool to hear coming from someone who's been in the space for so long. At Cyder, we think that the real win is when members of the customers of the groups feel seen and valued. What's the most unexpected way you've seen a brand of any sort kind of sort earn that kind of loyalty or kind of recognition? 

Arlene Dickinson:

That's a great example that's I know email marketing is is is super important and and it it it it actually has such a good opportunity to personalize, but it's not just about putting your name at the top of the email. It's about personalizing the service and the product that you're actually offering because you understand who I am. And I think you know, I think having your history travel with you as a customer really makes a difference. And and the example I give to is in the healthcare system, you know, nothing's more frustrating than if you have to go to two or three doctors and tell the exact same story about yourself over and over again. And so what needs to happen instead is our personal history needs to travel with us, not with the doctor. It needs to travel with us so that we have our kind of our health blueprint that when somebody else use you know, c works with us, they understand us right away. And I think we're, you know, the health system is getting there. But in the finance world, I don't think it's much different. I mean, you you can get frustrated because you have an account manager or somebody that you're working with for a decade and then suddenly they switch jobs or or they're gone and now you have to t get somebody else to know your business all over again and and they might not be as invested in your business in terms of wanting you to succeed 'cause they don't understand it and they don't have time to get to understand it. And so I think putting together, you know, I I I would say that when you can customize in a meaningful way, not just a name way, you know, hey Arlene, you know, here's our latest offering. It's hey Arlene, you know, we've noticed through, you know, your history that you are, you know, you love to buy real estate and we want you to know that we're here for you if you want to buy more real estate. That information's absolutely available to them and the data they have. They just need to mine it differently and make sure that they're actually then customizing. And marketing automation exists today. There's no reason that can't happen. 

William Christodoulou:

Yeah, that's super cool. 

Arlene Dickinson:

And we've talked about personalization and understanding, you know, like it's kind of where, you know, Cyder started, which was understanding the needs and the value of customer data and the information that we wanted to have, not necessarily what the advertiser wanted, because when if we got what we wanted, then the advertiser gets what they wanted, which is customer. 

William Christodoulou:

Exactly. That's exactly it. And it's cool because like that was how we kind of recognized how do we make it most effective. We found the niche of the credit union space. But like speaking on that, when we first met on the episode, you thought of this several years ago, the concept of I don't want just a generic happy birthday email. That's chief personalization. we actually had a conversation with another gentleman, Brian Pearson, really CEO at Air Miles, he talked about this concept of don't just give me small L loyalty, give me this concept of I feel evolved, I feel like I'm part of this and going to what you said using the data that is available, there's a wealth of stuff. There's some s wicked cool tools out there. So some brilliant engineers and groups that can provide awesome personalization that speaks to the exact life stage that some people are at and providing them the offering that speaks to them at that exact moment. 

Arlene Dickinson:

So definitely something that's right. And in today's world where, you know, I can give you permission to access my data if I decide I want to, this can be personalized because I'm prepared to listen, I love you as a credit union. I want to work with you. Yes, you can access this type of data on me. And people are much more prepared to give up their information if they believe there's a two sided marketplace happening. Not just I'm giving up my information and I don't know what you do with it, but I'm giving you my information so you can service my needs better. 

William Christodoulou:

That's awesome. Because it is actually something that some people don't typically think of with regards to the kind of a loyalty planet where I'm gonna give you something in exchange for not just our on the dollars, but a feeling or some extra perk. Because it's sometimes it's not just cash, right? Sometimes it's like an experience, sometimes it's a discount, sometimes it's I don't know, anything at all. So being able to do that is is super cool too. And I guess just as a quick thing, in the loyalty realm of things, loyalty is often seen as points and perks. That's what I kind of just alluded to. But it can be so much more, right? what role do you think modern loyalty programs can play in keeping dollars and trust circulating within a community or within a group. 

Arlene Dickinson:

I think I think in the case of the credit unions, there there probably is an I mean, listen, this is marketing on the fly. So, you know, for those of you listening, this is not like deeply thought through strategy, but it seems to me that there is an opportunity to help people buy inside of their community more effectively. And so y you are connected to many small businesses in your community as a result of being a credit union and and many many of your members, you know, not not just one small community, but the community at large, which could be a credit union that's for a business that's established against a sector or a credit union in a community. And I I think allowing and again understanding what those people want will going back to your original, you know, kind of originally what got us so interested in in talking to each other was This notion that you understand what all of my needs are, not just what my financial needs are. And because money is connected to literally everything we need and consume in the world. fine, you you you house my capital, but then t can you help me actually leverage that capital to get better access to the other things that I need in my life, whether that's a home, whether that's a car, whether that which are big purchases, or whether it's simply as something as simple as, you know, I I like a certain brand of you know, sportswear. Can you help me get that sportswear? can you help me create a relationship there? So the loyalty is again to me, not to your relationship only with me to you, but it's to me as the consumer. And if I get that loyalty, if I feel like you're loyal to me, I'm gonna give you a lot of more business and I'm going to actually help you grow your business more effectively. So I would say I think Credit unions have a unique ability to create loyalty by allowing their customers to do business with the other people that the credit union does business with if they want to. Whereas I don't know, I I can go in the room and somebody say, I work, I I'm with Bank XYZ. Now, the only way I would know they're at Bank XYZ is if somebody told me or if I happen to see on the XYZ banks. loyalty program, I can buy these things. So I can go, I've got so many points, I can go onto their site, I can buy toaster or whatever. But I don't know if that toaster company is a XYZ bank customer. I only know that they're offering thing, right? So doing business with like minded people actually I think is interesting. It's complex. It's hard to explain in a in a podcast. I'd have to I'd have to write 

William Christodoulou:

I know, regoing then if I I'll try. That's right. I could but first off just never discount it. But your on-the-fly marketing comes with years of experience. So like that on the fly like the Picasso back of napkin thing. It's still worth a thousand a thousand bucks easy. But it's basically like saying through going to the credit union world, I I started this question like as a generic loyalty, but going into the use case that you said, it's like if you're gonna offer a redemption event of some type of like give back to the lender or customer, make it something that speaks to the credit union local locality thing. So if I'm gonna redeem my five bucks for a product. I'd rather it go to the local coffee shop rather than to Mitsubishi or something like that. So that kind of nugget essentially, it's not only on the earning side of things, what you've just said, it's also on the okay, if I'm going to exchange in my dollar value, my redemption event, I want it to speak to the same kind of locality of the credit union loyalty program. Not for the use case that you just said.

Arlene Dickinson:

I mean, that's a more complex case study of how it can work, but loyalty is earned. And loyalty can be as simple as I I won't move my banking relationship ever because these people have treated me with respect. They understand me. They provide services and products that I need. They make it easy to do business with them. Loyalty is it's like respect. It's earned. You don't get loyalty unless you have respect. And so respect comes from this notion of giving me what I need in order to make my life what I need it to be. Stop my pain, build my dream. I I keep coming back to these two reasons that you do business with other companies. And so if that credit union or business can help me build my dream because it understands my dream and is prepared to help support that, awesome. If it can help me stop my pain because I'm in debt and I don't know how to get out of it and I'm struggling and I need help, I'm going to be loyal to it. So it again, it's understanding your customer as providing you know, these two basic principles of I want to help them build their dream or I want to help them stop their pain. And if we think about it that way, we create loyalty because we drive respect. 

​

William Christodoulou:

I love it. Thank you. And I guess on the last little bit and we'll get into some easy ones after this, is you've helped scale companies that feel really rooted. Like people love going to the brands that you go to. What's the trick to growing without kind of diluting those values, especially when going local, growing but you want to be big. It's kind of seems like they're competing in that kind of, hey, I want to be local but I want to get bigger. What would you say is the best way to kind of keep that going? 

Arlene Dickinson:

I think not every small business does want to be big. And I think bifurcating the marketplace to small business owners who you know, like against an entrepreneur who has a vision that's creating something new and in a or disruptive. So if you think about a small business owner who is by by inherent by nature it wants to stay a small business owner. They own a corner store. They own a a couple of dry cleaning companies. They own a a variety of a pet grooming business, whatever. And they're quite happy to you know, it's a lifestyle business. It provides for their family. It gives them what they need to, you know, to be happily financially secure and to still feel in control of their life 'cause they're running their own shop. Franchise owners are a good example. An entrepreneur is generally somebody who's much more risk friendly and has a dream to scale, wants to be big, can't imagine keeping it small because they are going to put everything behind this. They are going to work really hard to build a global footprint or a North American footprint or an Asian footprint, whatever. They are different people and many businesses treat them the same. They classify them as a small business owner because they are at that point in time small. So they all lump they they've got under 10 employees or under 10 million dollars in revenue. That makes them a small business owner. Instead of saying, wait, is this person a a much different type of entrepreneur? Is this somebody who wants to build a hundred million dollar business, a five hundred million dollar business? And so they need to take them on a different journey path than that person who says, No, I do not want to take that risk. I want to I might want to own two grocery stores, I got corner stores. I don't want to own a hundred. And I'm not doing anything really different. I just I'm taking a blueprint of a grocery store and I'm I want to do that. That's not right or wrong, by the way. Those are both very worthy livelihoods and very worthy ambitions. But generally we lump them and we try to characterize them and to categorize them by their size at the time they come into do business with us. And I would highly recommend that credit unions start to think about the businesses they're working with through the lens of what this business owner really is trying to accomplish as opposed to just bucketing everybody into the same Aaron S, you know, their small business owner. 

William Christodoulou:

I think just on the lifestyle versus big business kind of mentality, the line that I really love that you said is the both are amazing. I say this all the time, right? This whether you are the plumber in a local town or you are trying to build to an enterprise level, both are awesome paths. It's what works for you. And you see that on the show the show that you like on Dragon's Done, sometimes there's some amazing lifestyle businesses and then there's some amazing people that are going through the big scale. And you've always been like this. You've always been saying this where you're like both paths are awesome as long as it's at the right path for you. 

Arlene Dickinson:

Right. And some path some paths, you know, it's probably it if it's a small business, it's probably not something that, you know, we're going to invest in because we can see that it is a lifestyle business. And it's not because the idea is wrong. It's just not we're not gonna see an exit and three to five years with enough of a multiple to give us our capital back to take the risk worthwhile from an investment perspective. But it doesn't mean that it's a bad idea. 

William Christodoulou:

That's absolutely it awesome. We're getting to the end of it, but we'll have maybe one, two more questions and this will just be for fun. What's one small business cliche you wish we could finally retire? 

Arlene Dickinson:

Small business cliche we could finally retire. Maybe it would be if it was easy anybody could do it. Because I think everybody knows that it's hard. I think it's about desire, not about amount of work. Not everybody wants to do that work or take on that risk. And so, you know, is it possible for anybody to build their dream? Probably. Does everybody want to take the risk to build a dream? No. And so, you know, maybe it's that, you know, it's not it's it is hard, but people know it's hard. I just don't think people not everybody wants to do that work. That's just not of interest to them. And that's okay too. 

William Christodoulou:

That's great. Okay. Two quick rap rapid fire ones and we'll and we'll wrap it up. You often highlight companies that lead with purpose. What's one small business that's absolutely nailing both purpose and performance? 

Arlene Dickinson:

I would say purpose and performance. That's nailing both right now. I would say three I could think of an I would say Three Farmers Foods is right now nailing this notion of performance. They're very driven, they they're very business minded, but they've got this great purpose of, you know, creating food and products that are healthy for you and better for you. So yeah, they'd be a good example. Yeah, we'll make sure to give a give a tag. And the other one I'd say is Who Ha underwear. Huha is a great example of a business that is very purpose driven but very much understands the performance metrics that drive its business forward. But they they definitely have purpose. 

William Christodoulou:

Okay, and last one, you spoke about resilience as a muscle. What do you think helps small businesses stay resilient when the market gets tough? 

Arlene Dickinson:

I've always said that, you know, being on running a business, the highs are higher and the lows are lower than anything you'll ever do. And I think you have to grow a bit of a Teflon will. You have to really have this ability to not let setbacks or mistakes, which I hate to call them mistakes, or lessons stop you from moving forward. And that takes a mentality that is very much about I have to do this. I have a vision. I have to see this through. You guys are a good example of you know, you pivoted when you needed to pivot. You figured out what you needed to do. You didn't look at the what led you there as a mistake. You looked at it as a learning and you took that information forward with you. And so resilience is really about building that that it is muscle memory. It's saying, Okay, last time I had challenges, it wasn't the end of the world. I just figured out what I learned from those challenges and I took that lesson forward with me. I think resilience is We all demonstrate it every single day. We all have to be resilient right now. This is world is requiring resilience. It's requiring us to to stand true to who we are, to be resilient against the forces of right and wrong and good and bad and all the things that are happening in our world is creating resilience inside of all of us and a determination to get through it and to be as strong as we possibly can to weather the storm of what we can't control. And so resilience to me is. Recognizing what you can't control, owning what you can and getting through and around the challenges of that are put in front of you. Resilience is just finding new directions. It's like that ever ready bunny that hits the wall and turns around and goes another direction. It doesn't hit the wall and stop. It hits the wall and it goes, Okay, I need to, you know, let me turn this way and go that way. And so I think I think it's I think it's courage. I think it's being unafraid to fail. I think it's learning that you can't control everything, but you need to control what you can and it's believing in yourself. Resilience comes from a deep belief in yourself. 

William Christodoulou:

That's amazing. And I think that applies to almost everyone, no matter what walk of life or whatever they're doing. I hope that really actually resonates with a lot of people. And I think that'll help a lot of people what you just said, 'cause I think they can take that and apply that to their own lives and business, family, whatever it might be. And on that side of things too, I just want to express my deep gratitude for you and for your time. Providing not only kind of marketing help, but also life advice too, in this sense not only here, but to ourselves. So we are so grateful for this and we hope that anyone taking this away learns I know will learn something fantastic. So with that, thank you so much for this. And it's been an amazing opportunity to be able to chat with you about this. 

Arlene Dickinson:

I wanna say something if your customers are gonna be watching this podcast. I would say that I've invested in many, many companies. dozens of companies and you two are really an example of not just resilience but of positive energy and gratitude and generosity. And I can say that I never worry about the ethics, the skill set, the determination, the drive, the visions, the relationship, the partnership ever with you two. Ever. It doesn't cross my mind. I just think, okay, How do they get to be the size and s you know scale they want to be and how can we get them there? I don't think I wonder if they're fighting today. I wonder if they've given up today. You guys are great. Really great. You're a wonderful partner and I'm really proud to be an investor in your business. 

William Christodoulou:

Thank you so much. That's super kind of you. You're the best, Arlene. Thank you so much and grateful for this. 

Arlene Dickinson:

Talk to you soon.